Fascism from the Left
I posted my Jewish Mother Superior post on Slate this week and had this response and exchange:
Cassandra8:
Kerry does not call Israel a crappy police state--so please do not post such things under his logo. Remember--he needs all the votes he can get, and he does not need his supporters driving the Jews to the Bushes (who are, believe me, waiting with open arms).
thehim:
What the heck are you talking about? Just because I have a Kerry picture next to my name doesn't mean that I have to nod in silent agreement with everything he says. If Kerry doesn't think that Israel shoulders some blame for the situation they have found themselves in, then he's wrong. He'll still get my vote this year, but he's wrong.
My opinions aren't shaped around getting someone elected. They are shaped by the truth. If people blindly follow Kerry the way they've blindly followed Bush, then Kerry has no real incentive to do a good job. It's vital to be critical of those in power, whether they are Democrats or Republicans.
Cassandra8:
People may think Kerry agrees with YOU, not the other way around. And no one calls Saudi Arabia a crappy police state--certain leftists reserve that kind of invective for Israel. But they are NOT true liberals and no friends of Kerry.
thehim:
First of all, I'm not a liberal, nor do I aspire to be. If anyone thinks that I'm a spokesman for Kerry simply because I intend to vote for him, that's their problem, not mine or Kerry's. I guarantee you, in my journeys on Slate, I get more Bush voters to second-guess their thinking than Kerry voters. But I fully intend to do both.
Second, Saudi Arabia is also a crappy police state. Several Middle Eastern countries are crappy police states. They're bad places to live with very limited freedom. Iran is one as well. Iraq is quickly becoming one again. The goal for the middle east is to fix those problems.
John Kerry can not be as open and blunt as I can in my characterizations of the issues. As a politician, he has to understand that he can't win the election without large numbers of idiots voting for him. If you concede somehow that I can dissuade Kerry voters with my rhetoric than it's only logical that I could persuade Bush voters as well. I don't think that happens very often (but I've had Bush voters admit to me in the past that I've had them look at something in a different light), but your attempts at thought control here smack of fascism and paranoia. You're falling into the same trap that has allowed Bush to continually lie to us without consequence for so long. You need to question your leaders, even the ones you support.
Cassandra8:
Can we stop that "thought control" and "smacks of fascism" stuff? It all smacks of baloney--when I am saying that you can say anything you want but must consider the effect it may have on a candidate if you choose to pose under his logo.
I'm sorry, but I am tired of hearing "thought control" and "thought police" and "smacks of fascism" charges leveled at any criticism of anything.
thehim:
'Can we stop that "thought control" and "smacks of fascism" stuff?'
LOL! I'll stop making accusations when you stop attempting it! Just that line above is an attempt at "thought control". You have no right not to be offended by what I say, and you have even less right to tell me not to say it. Got it?
When Bush led us to war, fascist elements of our government and our media (think Space Cadet O'Reilly) were telling us that we could no longer oppose the war because it would hurt America as a whole. That is no different than you telling me (as a Kerry supporter) that I can't express a differing opinion than him, for fear that it will hurt the Democrats as a whole.
------------
I'm genuinely worried at this point at how many people out there think like Cassandra. They think of Kerry as the infallible savior of America that can't be questioned. This is the same exact way that Bush's wingnuts see Bush and the same way they attack those who don't agree with them. Does she think that only a fervent devotion to everything Kerry says will keep others from voting for Bush? I think any time I have a rational discussion with a Bush voter on Slate, that person walks away from that conversation thinking, 'Hey, that guy made some good points, and he's voting for Kerry'. And I always walk away with an appreciation for why even some relatively smart people are sticking in the Bush corner and crafting my arguments better in the future. That kind of honest exchange does a lot more than just blindly spouting the cliches and worn out rhetoric of the party line.
Cassandra8:
Kerry does not call Israel a crappy police state--so please do not post such things under his logo. Remember--he needs all the votes he can get, and he does not need his supporters driving the Jews to the Bushes (who are, believe me, waiting with open arms).
thehim:
What the heck are you talking about? Just because I have a Kerry picture next to my name doesn't mean that I have to nod in silent agreement with everything he says. If Kerry doesn't think that Israel shoulders some blame for the situation they have found themselves in, then he's wrong. He'll still get my vote this year, but he's wrong.
My opinions aren't shaped around getting someone elected. They are shaped by the truth. If people blindly follow Kerry the way they've blindly followed Bush, then Kerry has no real incentive to do a good job. It's vital to be critical of those in power, whether they are Democrats or Republicans.
Cassandra8:
People may think Kerry agrees with YOU, not the other way around. And no one calls Saudi Arabia a crappy police state--certain leftists reserve that kind of invective for Israel. But they are NOT true liberals and no friends of Kerry.
thehim:
First of all, I'm not a liberal, nor do I aspire to be. If anyone thinks that I'm a spokesman for Kerry simply because I intend to vote for him, that's their problem, not mine or Kerry's. I guarantee you, in my journeys on Slate, I get more Bush voters to second-guess their thinking than Kerry voters. But I fully intend to do both.
Second, Saudi Arabia is also a crappy police state. Several Middle Eastern countries are crappy police states. They're bad places to live with very limited freedom. Iran is one as well. Iraq is quickly becoming one again. The goal for the middle east is to fix those problems.
John Kerry can not be as open and blunt as I can in my characterizations of the issues. As a politician, he has to understand that he can't win the election without large numbers of idiots voting for him. If you concede somehow that I can dissuade Kerry voters with my rhetoric than it's only logical that I could persuade Bush voters as well. I don't think that happens very often (but I've had Bush voters admit to me in the past that I've had them look at something in a different light), but your attempts at thought control here smack of fascism and paranoia. You're falling into the same trap that has allowed Bush to continually lie to us without consequence for so long. You need to question your leaders, even the ones you support.
Cassandra8:
Can we stop that "thought control" and "smacks of fascism" stuff? It all smacks of baloney--when I am saying that you can say anything you want but must consider the effect it may have on a candidate if you choose to pose under his logo.
I'm sorry, but I am tired of hearing "thought control" and "thought police" and "smacks of fascism" charges leveled at any criticism of anything.
thehim:
'Can we stop that "thought control" and "smacks of fascism" stuff?'
LOL! I'll stop making accusations when you stop attempting it! Just that line above is an attempt at "thought control". You have no right not to be offended by what I say, and you have even less right to tell me not to say it. Got it?
When Bush led us to war, fascist elements of our government and our media (think Space Cadet O'Reilly) were telling us that we could no longer oppose the war because it would hurt America as a whole. That is no different than you telling me (as a Kerry supporter) that I can't express a differing opinion than him, for fear that it will hurt the Democrats as a whole.
------------
I'm genuinely worried at this point at how many people out there think like Cassandra. They think of Kerry as the infallible savior of America that can't be questioned. This is the same exact way that Bush's wingnuts see Bush and the same way they attack those who don't agree with them. Does she think that only a fervent devotion to everything Kerry says will keep others from voting for Bush? I think any time I have a rational discussion with a Bush voter on Slate, that person walks away from that conversation thinking, 'Hey, that guy made some good points, and he's voting for Kerry'. And I always walk away with an appreciation for why even some relatively smart people are sticking in the Bush corner and crafting my arguments better in the future. That kind of honest exchange does a lot more than just blindly spouting the cliches and worn out rhetoric of the party line.
posted by thehim at 9:30 AM
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